Miyamoto Talks Super Mario Galaxy 2, Zelda

Mario should have as little story as possible. Paper mario on wii was shite. The story was boring to read. I resealed that title and took it straight back.

In terms of release dates, I just have Brawl palying in my Head. It was announced so early and released like last year. And by that time, everyone knew everything about the game, the unlockable characters, items and story line courtesy of the official website, that the game lost basically all hype what so ever. And by the time it came out in the EU, most people had got the american edition and played that to death already.

I much prefer games to be released in a normal time frame i.e. within the year. Unlike games like Zelda TP which was announced back in E3 2003/04 I forget and it only got released with the wii at launch, way, way, way too long a time.

The only game that is alowed to have that kind of release timing is HALF LIFE 2 and *cough* DUKE NUKEM *cough*
Even half life was pushing it oh...by about six years I rekon
(Joking on the Nukem front )

Mario seriously doesn't need a story. If he told anyone his story no one would believe him anyway.

"Hello 911 emergency how may I help?

"Hello-a de police-a please."

"Your through the New York Police Department"

"Hello police? It's-a me Mario. There's-a big-a de-lizard and he take-a de Princess and-a de lumas to space on-a de pirate ship. De mushrooms are-a gone-a too. My brother Luigi-a gone through-a de pipe to look-a for stars."

"Let me get this straight sir. A giant lizard took the princess and a Luma?? into space on a pirate ship. All your mushrooms are gone and your brother went through a pipe to look for stars. Is that correct?"

"Also Magic Mushrooms???"
"Yes I take-a the red and I grow big."
"I take-a the blue then I go small."
"I take-a the green then it say 1up above-a me face."

"Where are you currently sir?"
"In-a de Brooklyn"
"Just stay there sir some 'MEN' will be there shortly"
"Grazia bella Ciao"

Mario is fiction though.

Also he was from Brooklyn in the cartoons and film to give him a little backstory, but as far as the games go noone knows where he\'s from. But he has an italian accent, not a brooklyn one.

So at least he can concentrate on card games, unlike some people.

I\'ve said it tons of times, I\'ll say it again.
Mario doesn\'t need story, but he could benefit from even a simple one, rather than making Peach out to be some airhead hardly fit to rule a magical kingdom.

I\'m pretty sure there\'s nothing a good story can\'t make better.

( Edited 14.06.2009 00:07 by SuperLink )

I have to disagree to some extent. There are some scenarios where story is superfluous. It doesn't make much sense to waste a plot on something that's built on the principles of simplicity. It really can detract from the goal of the game. I think part of what makes Mario great is that it is pure fun that needs no explanation to enhance it. Plus games like Mario and Sonic are inherently ridiculous, so sometimes if you put too much emphasis on story you start to look silly.

A Pacman or Tetris game that tried to be story driven would be ridiculous (although that Tetris movie trailer that Black20 made was pretty sweet). I know that these aren't the best examples (Tetris doesn't even have characters), but you get my point. I don't think it's impossible to incorporate good stories in games like Super Mario, but it won't necessarily make the game a better experience.

Also, I agree with Mario_0. Sonic games really need to adopt this philosophy. They take their stories way too seriously.

The fans wanted to know what they were getting and they were told, blame the fans. Brawl and Galaxy 2 are totally different games, Brawl fans get hyped for the new characters, mario fans get hyped for the twist in the original platform mechanics. This time we know whats coming more of the same, plus a bit more.



Take a bit of your own advice



She is an airhead she doesn\'t need to be clever to rule the kingdom, it fictional. Anyway she\'s the princess hence there must be a king or queen somewhere ruling the kingdom? I think a story would ruin Mario\'s magic, for me it would anyway, this is a platformer not an RPG. Don\'t make out Mario games to be something they aren\'t.

( Edited 14.06.2009 02:45 by Birdo Is A Tranny )

It's quite obvious some games need a story while others do not. Mario is an arcade game at heart, it is a platformer. It doesn't lend itself to have a deep story, actually it would piss me off if they tried to be all deep on me during playtime. I don't want to see cutscenes and what not in a Mario platformer game. Otherwise it'd feel like sonic. The developers of sonic keep giving trying to give sonic these stories that pretend to be all deep and complex, when really they are quite poor. The game doesn't need it. More is not always better, sometimes you need to omit things for things to be good. Don't misunderstand me and think that I am not for good stories, I just feel that not every game needs to be story driven.

Sonic is a great example of why we don't need no story in Mario. They just try so hard with that story. Why the hell do Sega have a human kisses a 5ft hedgehog with a big head and a mouth at the side of his face. I hated sonic after that.

Also his fans are equally messed up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTdvu1DrSY4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TO0qEbNxVc

Seriously watch these, I couldn't find the official vids and this guy explain it better. Tell me how you like Sonic now SuperLink

The point is though, if Nintendo wanted to give Mario a story, it would be harmless and for the most part good. The Sonic universe's story is generally quite weak because it tries to put in mature themes and make it deep.

While it works to an extent in games like Sonic Adventure 2, and games like Sonic Adventure 1 are just built up from the basic formula (a bit like Galaxy or Sunshine) most of them are "badly" told.

Nintendo wouldn't do that to Mario. If Sonic Team don't care about making a good Sonic game then they obviously don't care about a good story that fully benefits the Sonic series. Nintendo on the other hand would probably come up with the perfect story for a Mario game (the Mario RPGs are off to a good start) if Miyamoto would just give them the chance.

Also Simez, every community has their fair share of total crackpots, but I'm afraid that Sonic just happens to be furry/fancharacter cental >_>;

Haha I knew you'd find a way to back it all up. Thank God you took the sane route

This topic reminds me of the whole give link a voice topic. If Nintendo gave Mario some sort of meaningful story, the fans would want more and more. They would then have to spend more time developing a story, which means in the long run less time perfecting the platforming goodness. The platforming in Mario always comes first, the story is then built around it. Mario has worked without a proper plot for the last how many years, and you want it to have a plot now? Honestly, I don't see the point.

Link doesn\'t need full voice acting or anything of the sort, he just needs to be more important (like Chrono) and have a personality.

Yes, Mario has worked without a story for all these years, but when it comes to giving him something to evolve his series a little, then why not?

If the fans want more, that would only mean the story is enjoyed right? Nintendo aren\'t so stupid that they would focus Mario on story as opposed to gameplay. Gameplay is always of utmost importance in a game like Mario (and it should be in most platformers). Besides there doesn\'t even have to be some kind of ongoing continuity like Starfox or Sonic. In NSMB, a tagline in the plot section said \"Didn\'t Bowser Jr once think Peach was his mama?\" But there was absolutely fuck all to do with that in the game. The introduction of Bowser Jr is pretty much the only sense of continuity the series has, but we probably won\'t find out anything else about him.

However, did people really complain much about it? I enjoyed the plot of Mario Sunshine, finding out who this Shadow Mario was, and I\'m sure the kids loved it too. Then I wanted to find out why Bowser Jr called Peach mama, and I was genuinly surprised to see Bowser at the end, as when I bought it I expected the main antagonist to be Shadow Mario.

Even if it was predictable, a Mario game had a plot twist! Still, nothing tried to be too serious, nothing tried to be deep, it was just fun, harmless, but more than anything it gave even more motivation to play through the already great game.

( Edited 14.06.2009 14:25 by SuperLink )

I can\'t be bothered to type an essay, so I\'m just gonna say I agree with everything SL has said.



Shush you. It was a good story! And a damn fun game!

Games SHOULD have a decent story, it can only add to the experience. The only exception is puzzle games. Why some puzzle games have more story than Mario baffles me. (Obviously I mean games like Tetris, not Layton. )



( Edited 14.06.2009 14:44 by Ikana )

Agreed.
You dont need a complex story to have a fun story.


Well, as I said its interesting.
Its not that you cant have both, its more increase in one nessitates the decrease of another. So, for a finite game length you can either make it "wide" or "tall".
The limitating factor is most obviously budget, but purhapes more importantly the sense of reward for the player.
In order for a side-quest to be worth something the player must get something in return right? Now, as you pointed out earlier just a few rupees isnt enough...especialy as the value of ruppees dosnt seem much in terms of what you need.
(well, TP did kinda try to make them always worth something with that armour....but that armour wasnt that needed....save the savage dungoen I guess. [more money then hearts there]).

So, instead, you can give the player other stuff to help. Nintendo does it by health...give the player a fraction of health for doing small puzzles dotted about. Pretty good system, imho.
But the problem is, if theres too much relience on this health, people that dont do the sidequests find the game too hard to play. So you then make the game easier so the health isnt needed so much....
...but then the health becomes worth-less again. (that is worth less, not wortheless )

So you see its a rather tricky balance?

I think dividing the hearts into 5 rather then 4 helped a bit (more tasks to do, even if the reward is less). But overall, at its core, Nintendo needs to come up with a seperate reward system.
No idea what it could be, but I think it should be based more around "cool stuff to do" rather then things strickly needed.

Okami did it with unlockable concept art. Guess thats a route Nintendo could do too. Purhapes mixed with non-essiental buy cool items for your charecter.





Agreed. TP was lacking in "memorable NPCs" (if you can even say that). All the NPCs in OoTs that returned for Majora's Mask all stick in my mind, and the townsfolk on Windfall Island of WW were just full of life and charm. [/quote]

ish.
Honestly I cant remember much ncp's from wind waker.
Only the SPLISSSSHHHHHH minigame guy
TP had a few memorable charecters...the guy building the cannon and the barmaid.

But the different was -everyone- in the other Zelda games you could talk too.
TP had a lot more people, but you could only talk to a few inside.

So, as a percentage of the world, it seemed less alive.

Well, as I said, in terms of talking.
The animation was full of life.

I actually happen to like the story that Mario has. The princess is captured now go save her by playing the game, pure and simple no bullshit. When I say I like the story I dont mean that I find it captivating I like it because it gives the character a simple purpose and just lets you get on with the game with no crap to go through.

Im all for a good story its just that I absolutely do not trust a games developer to deliver a good one. Lets face it the vast majority of videogame stories are shite. Just compare them to a well made film or book and you would realise.

I would have to seriously have to think hard to come up with at least 10 games that I would consider to have a good story. At the moment all I can think of is Deus Ex and the Phoenix Wright series.

Sonic is a great case study for this debate. He's just so damn gay now when he neednt be.

I don\'t think Mario needs some overly rediculous story that you\'d need to spend hours following and remembering - just a few key characters with that little bit more depth to them.

For example Rosalina could have been a little bit more involved in the game, perhaps Luigi also. Mario is fun, and has awesome gameplay but can do with a little bit of a goal to work towards. 120 stars? Brill. Would like to see some form of conclusion to a story - the standard \"Bowser is defeated. Till next time, Mario\" is a little predictable!

Both Mario and Zelda (the major ones) seem to be using the over-used \"save the girl\" garbage. Big, bad, demon/dragon/monster holds the Princess captive and hero chap goes in to save her.

Give it a little twist, a shake up - not completely rip a good franchise to shreds, but I think as TP has shown - good gameplay, decent story but with predictable ending.

Nintendo can\'t hide behind good gameplay forever!

( Edited 14.06.2009 22:39 by jb )

First of all, Miyamoto hates RPGs, which I am glad he does, because most RPGs don\'t just have bad game design, they have the most clicheed and uninspired stories. On the other hand Koizumi has a degree in film directing, that\'s why from his first days working on game booklets at Nintendo, he would try to sneak more story in there. He did it with Link\'s Awakening!!! And I really enjoyed Galaxy\'s story book. It reminded me of Le Petit Prince. Very nice and warming story (although of course Le Petit Prince is a much more philosophical creation) but i absolutely understand Miyamoto\'s reasoning. Story for Mario is just a waste of time. Nice and small story would be fine.
On the Zelda side, I enjoyed Majora\'s Mask story a lot. One of the best stories in the gaming history. Characters were much more alive than in 99% of JRPGs, and this was done with very little dialogue and cutscenes!!! I can recall only one another designer who can do it this way, it is Suda. I also liked WW twist near the end of the game. I was ecstatic when i found out what happened to Hyrule. I would like new Zelda\'s story to be more of a Majora\'s Mask type. Desperate, moody, sad, hopeless...
justonesp00lturn, how do they take inspiration from SOTC??? That\'s the third time I hear this kind of claim, but none of the people who made such claims can explain it. Is SOTC the only game with big sophisticated bosses? Why not saying Metroid Prime for example? Even Ocarina, Majora and WW all had big and sophisticated bosses. It was SOTC who used the Ocarina\'s horse mechanic.

( Edited 14.06.2009 22:52 by maeda )

PONG 2009 announced! Voice talent from Robert Downey Jr, Megan Fox and Jim Broadbent!

Sorry, a bit late to the comments.

Galaxy had the perfect Mario story. What more could you want? It had depth and was even moving. Importantly it was optional. Note, optional. Not skippable.

You don't need cut-scenes to convey a story. Introducing them invariable turns the game into a more linear experience as you travel from one to the next, getting your dose of story in minute-long cinematics. If the gameplay has no link to the narrative then why bother with expositional cutscenes? Mario jumps and bounces on heads. Any story incorporating that is going to be toilet. Sunshine was more story-based because FLUDD was an inherent part of the gameplay.

If you want serious story in a Mario game then you haven't thought it through properly. If you have thought it through and you still want it then you're a bit of an idiot. Story for story's sake is deadweight in a game that's about movement and play. See the hedgehog for details. For Christ's sake, you've been given multiple Mario RPGs - why does every game need a narrative?

Pretty much agreed there too. Good point about the optional story aswell, that\'s probably something Miyamoto put in to compensate for cutscenes that Koizumi probably wanted so badly. xD I think it\'s something they should consider for future Mario games.

I\'d like to see a little character interaction though. Maybe Mario and Luigi sharing a laugh here and there.

Despite not being necessary though, I do think story is important, and I don\'t really like Miyamoto\'s attitude to it, especially the bit about Peach and cake... the funny thing is, it sounds just typical.

I\'ll reiterate that I think story is fine in any game as long as it\'s done right. I know your thoughts on Sonic\'s story, but as far as I\'m concerned the only problem Sonic has is focusing on story INSTEAD of gameplay.

If it had both then that\'s great. Unleashed was a fun game to play but the cutscenes were generally bad, probably because they tried to go for the \"light story\" route but put in too many cutscenes anyway.

Cutscenes in games like Adventure 1 and 2 were fun though.

( Edited 14.06.2009 23:42 by SuperLink )

Agreed, what they did with Galaxy was perfect for Mario in my opinion. It was not a Mario RPG, so it had no need to be more involved that it actually was. The side optional story was also a nice touch.

I'd have to disagree. Miyamoto isn't sitting around making people not add stories to the Zelda games. Quite the contrary, they tend to have very in-depth storylines; especially the ones that Miaymoto directed. I don't expect the next Zelda to be lacking in that department, at all.

To be honest, I haven't ever really gotten into the Mario games. I never played Sunshine, I played Galaxy once at a Gamestop. I feel like any comments I have on the story area of the games may not be up to par. That said, the Paper Mario games were very well-done and didn't feel at all like they had too little or too much story to them.

No, the Paper Mario series is generally full of win and I have no complaints at all. They're hilarious, they're long, and their stories are genuinly interesting and good.

As for Zelda though, I don't agree that the Zelda series has particulatly strong story. For the most part, it's very predictable and more of the same, and TP went one step further by making Link and Zelda almost unecessary to the story (with Link being nothing more than a catalyst, rather than the story's focus as he probably should be)

Few Zelda games have great story, and if all Zelda games were are unique or well told as those then I would have little reason to doubt Miyamoto's storytelling skills. However, it's a well known fact that Miyamoto and Aonuma don't see eye to eye about the story in Zelda games. Aonuma believes they should do something a bit different with it.

I agree, the storylines have become rather formulaic. The first game had little story to begin with, the second game hardly differed. A Link to the Past was probably the first Zelda game to have a thorough storyline to it. Ocarina of Time had a magnificent story, but its success would eventually lead to it setting the formula for games to follow. Majora's Mask also had a very good story and stands out rather far from the rest of the series. I liked the story behind Wind Waker a lot. Twilight PRincess brought a lot of new elements, but the key story was rather the same.
I guess the problem goes back to how they keep trying to redo Ocarina over and over again. They add new elements, but nothing too different.
I won't comment on the differences between Aonuma and Miyamoto. I don't have any idea what goes on between the two. If what you're saying is correct (and if you could provide me with some links or interviews backing the stuff up, I'd appreciate it) then it sounds to me like Myamoto needs to step back and let the director be a director. Hopefully, they'll learn from the way Twilight Princess was criticized for being more of the same, and actually implement something new to the series. Every Zelda game is an instant success, these days. Back then, every Zelda game was an instant classic. Nintendo has been around long enough to where they should be able to tell the difference between the two, and which one they should be aiming for.

Perhaps what the series needs is a major overhaul. Things like element-themed temples and reused locations are classic, but not necessarily central to the games. TP tried to bring in some new items, to minor success (the spinner is kinda cool. The ball and chain was kinda silly.)

As I've said before, the more elements they implement that are inspired by games liek Shadow of the Colossus, the better the games seem to be. Boss battles have become much more epic. Perhaps they can focus on a more free-roaming, less linear game. People are getting a bit tired of using the same items to get through the same temples to save the same princess. Hyrule is a big place, it has the feeling of a lot of history that the games rarely ever touch upon. There are hoardes of untapped potential behind every single game. Maybe the big N needs to peel away that top layer, and dive straight into the epic adventures that can be found beneath the surface.