Zelda: Skyward Sword Comes Before Ocarina of Time

By Jorge Ba-oh 22.07.2010 24

Zelda: Skyward Sword Comes Before Ocarina of Time on Nintendo gaming news, videos and discussion

In the latest interview with longrunning Zelda producer Eiji Aonuma, he confirms that Skyward Sword takes place before Ocarina of Time.

Speaking to Official Nintendo Magazine, Aonuma reveals that Nintendo do have some idea of where the various stories sit in an overall Legend of Zelda timeline, tucked away nicely in a "confidential document".

Wherever the N64 fan favourite lays, the new game for Wii, Skyward Sword, will tell a story set before the events of Ganondorf and the Kokiri Forest. Nintendo refuse to mention which game, if any, is the first to allow for prequels to be made if needed.

...if I said that a certain title was "the first Zelda game", then that means that we cant ever make a title that takes place before that! So for us to add titles to the series, we have to have a way of putting the titles before or after each other.

Scans and additional details over at ZeldaDungeon.net.

Box art for The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
Developer

Nintendo

Publisher

Nintendo

Genre

Action Adventure

Players

1

C3 Score

Rated $score out of 10  10/10

Reader Score

Rated $score out of 10  9/10 (28 Votes)

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OoT is generally regarded as the first one because of various characters and items in it. However, no one knows for sure.

Perhaps Ganondorf is not even in Skyward Sword, though he very may well be, if Ganon is just a personification of evil. Either way, it doesn't matter what the story contains, since this game looks to be offering a lot of gameplay improvements.

PMD said:
Perhaps Ganondorf is not even in Skyward Sword, though he very may well be, if Ganon is just a personification of evil.

I think it's impossible for Ganon to be in SS. According to OoT he grew up within the lifetime of many OoT characters (like the king for example), and Nabooru knew him before everything started going to shit.

This would mean that OoT was Ganon's very first act of evil. If SS is set before OoT (and it is), then there will probably be another villain, but hopefully a good one!

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King K Rule (guest) 24.07.2010#3

Theres 100 Links running around Hyrule. Theres not one Link theres a timeline of them doing different things and killing Gannon every time. Thats what it is.

Eiji Aonuma is probably trying to put them in some sort of order. Miyamoto meanwhile is just happy with them anywhere. Losely overlapping storys. Legends, if you like.

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Darkflame said:
Eiji Aonuma is probably trying to put them in some sort of order. Miyamoto meanwhile is just happy with them anywhere. Losely overlapping storys. Legends, if you like.

I think both Aonuma and Miyamoto work on the timeline. This document full of Timeline details has been mentioned before in interviews with them.

So it seems Miyamoto isn't completely anti-story when it comes to Zelda atleast. However I think Miyamoto is the one who decided it remain confidential.

Considering the current director also worked on the Oracle games and Minish Cap, and Aonuma said the current director has access to the document, do you think he knows if Capcom's games are even on there?

( Edited 24.07.2010 13:49 by SuperLink )

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Would be good to see a 3D debut from Vatti; let the game link to Minish Cap by explaining the 'Sword from the Sky' angle, and then a future Zelda explaining when the Four Sword was renamed the Master Sword.

Yup, I've been swotting up on timeline speculation. Smilie

Edit; Dang, just realised Vatti was first established in MC. Okay then, the story of the Evil Spirit that was defeated and locked away into Majora's Mask.

( Edited 24.07.2010 18:52 by Phokamiden )

Magna (guest) 26.07.2010#7

It could be the one in MM but that's kind of an alternate world. I, myself, prefer it would be the previous owner of the Trident. In one of the games, it's mentioned that Ganondorf stole it from a temple where it was sealed, pertaining to evil king.

oil* (guest) 26.07.2010#8

Fuck Ganon and screw that idiot Miyamoto. A preschopl kid could be moar inventive *roll*

I guess this means that theory that all cel-shaded Zeldas are part of one timeline and all non-cel-shaded ones are part of another is out the window.

SuperLink said:
PMD said:
Perhaps Ganondorf is not even in Skyward Sword, though he very may well be, if Ganon is just a personification of evil.

I think it's impossible for Ganon to be in SS. According to OoT he grew up within the lifetime of many OoT characters (like the king for example), and Nabooru knew him before everything started going to shit.

This would mean that OoT was Ganon's very first act of evil. If SS is set before OoT (and it is), then there will probably be another villain, but hopefully a good one!

Not if each Zelda game involves a completely different set of characters. It could be a different Ganon.

NNID: crackedthesky
My blog, mostly about writing: http://www.davidjlovato.com

justonesp00lturn said:
I guess this means that theory that all cel-shaded Zeldas are part of one timeline and all non-cel-shaded ones are part of another is out the window.

No I wouldn't say that's 100%, it's likely, but we can't say for sure.

Not if each Zelda game involves a completely different set of characters. It could be a different Ganon.

Unlike the other cast members, Ganon is different. Every Ganon from every Zelda game so far has been the same person. A male is born to the Gerudo tribe every 100 years, so if SS' villain is like a "previous" Ganon, then he would need to be completely out of the picture by the end of SS.

I don't think that's very unlikely or even a good idea, plotwise.

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SuperLink said:
justonesp00lturn said:
I guess this means that theory that all cel-shaded Zeldas are part of one timeline and all non-cel-shaded ones are part of another is out the window.

No I wouldn't say that's 100%, it's likely, but we can't say for sure.

Not if each Zelda game involves a completely different set of characters. It could be a different Ganon.

Unlike the other cast members, Ganon is different. Every Ganon from every Zelda game so far has been the same person. A male is born to the Gerudo tribe every 100 years, so if SS' villain is like a "previous" Ganon, then he would need to be completely out of the picture by the end of SS.

I don't think that's very unlikely or even a good idea, plotwise.

That can't be true. Ganon is given multiple backstories throughout the series, some incompatible with each other (OoT and FSA, for instance.) He also very clearly dies at the end of Twilight Princess, but I doubt that will be the last game to take place in the series.

In any case, there would at the very least have to be two separate Ganons, because there are two separate timelines.

It seems far more realistic that there's more than one Ganon than that there's one who doesn't age, has a different backstory every time he's seen, never learns from his mistakes, dies sometimes, gets locked permanently in many different realms but somehow always finds a way out, etc.

I think probably the most realistic idea is that there's one Ganon, but multiple Ganondorfs; thus explaining the deaths and multiple backstories, but also why Ganon seems to have knowledge of events of other games.

NNID: crackedthesky
My blog, mostly about writing: http://www.davidjlovato.com

justonesp00lturn said:

That can't be true. Ganon is given multiple backstories throughout the series, some incompatible with each other (OoT and FSA, for instance.) He also very clearly dies at the end of Twilight Princess, but I doubt that will be the last game to take place in the series.

FSA is the only instance in which Ganon is given an alternate backstory. Plus, he appears to die at the end of Twilight Princess, yet there are many games where this appears to happen. In any case he is continuously revived and the only mention of his birth is in OoT and FSA.

So even if he were to die in TP, it could very easily be followed by LttP or OoA/OoS

In any case, there would at the very least have to be two separate Ganons, because there are two separate timelines.

Yes, at the end of OoT the only major character that doesn't end up in both timelines is Link.

It seems far more realistic that there's more than one Ganon than that there's one who doesn't age, has a different backstory every time he's seen, never learns from his mistakes, dies sometimes, gets locked permanently in many different realms but somehow always finds a way out, etc.

I think probably the most realistic idea is that there's one Ganon, but multiple Ganondorfs; thus explaining the deaths and multiple backstories, but also why Ganon seems to have knowledge of events of other games.


Ganon has gained the power of the gods on multiple occasions and become timeless, even degraded to a mindless beast at parts that fans assume are later on in the series.

We know from ingame text that Ganon is constantly revived/freed from his prisons.

All of Ganon's appearances throughout the series:
Zelda 1: Little to no backstory anyway
Zelda 2: Ganon's minions attempt to resurrect him after Zelda 1
LttP: Ganon is trying to resurrect himself through Agahnim
Link's Awakening: Ganon is a nightmare at best
Ocarina of Time: Ganondorf's backstory
Oracle of Ages/Seasons: Ganon is revived by Koume and Kotake
Wind Waker: Ganon escapes the sacred realm after OoT
Twilight Princess: Ganon is banished to the Twilight Realm where he manupulates Zant after OoT
Four Swords Adventures: The only part in the series that doesn't make sense when it comes to Ganon

I honestly don't know how FSA's backstory could be explained. It could be that the FS arc is set in a further alternate timeline, or it could have been an oversight in writing.

However, while the writers make it quite clear that Link and Zelda are constantly meeting for the first time and therefore different people, Ganon has this omniscience about him and he continuously tries to take over Hyrule as the same entity. There is a Ganon in each timeline but ultimately this is because they are both the same person from OoT.

In any case, for SS to be before OoT means that SS either won't have Ganon, or will have a previous gerudo king out of the picture by the end of the game. Keep in mind that during Ocarina of Time, the royal family has complete trust in Ganon, as he is an ambassador for his country.

This would be heavily influenced by legends of "previous Ganons", especially in a series where legend is so strong.



( Edited 27.07.2010 20:01 by SuperLink )

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SuperLink said:
justonesp00lturn said:

That can't be true. Ganon is given multiple backstories throughout the series, some incompatible with each other (OoT and FSA, for instance.) He also very clearly dies at the end of Twilight Princess, but I doubt that will be the last game to take place in the series.

FSA is the only instance in which Ganon is given an alternate backstory. Plus, he appears to die at the end of Twilight Princess, yet there are many games where this appears to happen. In any case he is continuously revived and the only mention of his birth is in OoT and FSA.

So even if he were to die in TP, it could very easily be followed by LttP or OoA/OoS

In any case, there would at the very least have to be two separate Ganons, because there are two separate timelines.

Yes, at the end of OoT the only major character that doesn't end up in both timelines is Link.

It seems far more realistic that there's more than one Ganon than that there's one who doesn't age, has a different backstory every time he's seen, never learns from his mistakes, dies sometimes, gets locked permanently in many different realms but somehow always finds a way out, etc.

I think probably the most realistic idea is that there's one Ganon, but multiple Ganondorfs; thus explaining the deaths and multiple backstories, but also why Ganon seems to have knowledge of events of other games.


Ganon has gained the power of the gods on multiple occasions and become timeless, even degraded to a mindless beast at parts that fans assume are later on in the series.

We know from ingame text that Ganon is constantly revived/freed from his prisons.

All of Ganon's appearances throughout the series:
Zelda 1: Little to no backstory anyway
Zelda 2: Ganon's minions attempt to resurrect him after Zelda 1
LttP: Ganon is trying to resurrect himself through Agahnim
Link's Awakening: Ganon is a nightmare at best
Ocarina of Time: Ganondorf's backstory
Oracle of Ages/Seasons: Ganon is revived by Koume and Kotake
Wind Waker: Ganon escapes the sacred realm after OoT
Twilight Princess: Ganon is banished to the Twilight Realm where he manupulates Zant after OoT
Four Swords Adventures: The only part in the series that doesn't make sense when it comes to Ganon

I honestly don't know how FSA's backstory could be explained. It could be that the FS arc is set in a further alternate timeline, or it could have been an oversight in writing.

However, while the writers make it quite clear that Link and Zelda are constantly meeting for the first time and therefore different people, Ganon has this omniscience about him and he continuously tries to take over Hyrule as the same entity. There is a Ganon in each timeline but ultimately this is because they are both the same person from OoT.

In any case, for SS to be before OoT means that SS either won't have Ganon, or will have a previous gerudo king out of the picture by the end of the game. Keep in mind that during Ocarina of Time, the royal family has complete trust in Ganon, as he is an ambassador for his country.

This would be heavily influenced by legends of "previous Ganons", especially in a series where legend is so strong.



I'll still subscribe to the idea of multiple Ganondorfs, at least. After all, half the time Ganon is around, there was no Ganondorf at all...

Skyward Sword may not even take place in Hyrule at all. There's Skyloft, and then there's an evil land below. One of them may eventually become Hyrule, but the way it sounds so far, it sounds like the game pre-dates Hyrule.

Makes you wonder if or how Princess Zelda will be involved...

I think it'd be interesting if, sometime in the future, there was a Zelda game where instead of flipping between a light world and a dark world, you flip through timelines, essentially playing as two Links. The possibilities are endless; there could be two of every character (think along the lines of playing Ocarina and Majora's Mask... but as one game, flipping between the two worlds,) and characters might be good in one world but bad in another, etc.; with Link eventually having to re-join the two timelines.

The only way it could be more awesome, would be if Link used a phone booth to traverse the two timelines Smilie

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justonesp00lturn said:

I'll still subscribe to the idea of multiple Ganondorfs, at least. After all, half the time Ganon is around, there was no Ganondorf at all...

Just don't be surprised if he doesn't turn up in SS at all, OoT was "Ganon's origin story", and there are no legends of an evil king from before OoT's time. The only stories from back then are those of wars and Dark Interlopers.

Skyward Sword may not even take place in Hyrule at all. There's Skyloft, and then there's an evil land below. One of them may eventually become Hyrule, but the way it sounds so far, it sounds like the game pre-dates Hyrule.

Makes you wonder if or how Princess Zelda will be involved...


The fact that Princess Zelda is involved kinda confirms that Hyrule will be in in some shape or form. The very first Princess Zelda was Princess of Hyrule (we know this from her brother's "Legend of Zelda" from Zelda 2)

with Link eventually having to re-join the two timelines.

A lot of people think the Oracle games merge the timelines, but yeah that sounds pretty fun Smilie

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SuperLink said:
justonesp00lturn said:

I'll still subscribe to the idea of multiple Ganondorfs, at least. After all, half the time Ganon is around, there was no Ganondorf at all...

Just don't be surprised if he doesn't turn up in SS at all, OoT was "Ganon's origin story", and there are no legends of an evil king from before OoT's time. The only stories from back then are those of wars and Dark Interlopers.

Skyward Sword may not even take place in Hyrule at all. There's Skyloft, and then there's an evil land below. One of them may eventually become Hyrule, but the way it sounds so far, it sounds like the game pre-dates Hyrule.

Makes you wonder if or how Princess Zelda will be involved...


The fact that Princess Zelda is involved kinda confirms that Hyrule will be in in some shape or form. The very first Princess Zelda was Princess of Hyrule (we know this from her brother's "Legend of Zelda" from Zelda 2)

with Link eventually having to re-join the two timelines.

A lot of people think the Oracle games merge the timelines, but yeah that sounds pretty fun Smilie

Just because an earlier legend of Ganon hasn't been told, doesn't mean there weren't any. OoT doesn't mention the previous heroes or princesses, either.

Is Princess Zelda involved? I don't remember seeing or hearing about her.
This story is said to be the origin of the Master Sword. Since the Master Sword exists to conquer evil, or more specifically Ganon, it wouldn't surprise me if the game has a Ganon origin, rather than just a Ganondorf origin story.

I didn't play the Oracle games, but I was under the impression that they may not even be canon, having been devloped by Capcom rather than by Nintendo.

But hey, I recently dug my Gameboy Advance out of the garage and cleaned the years of filth off of it, and it actually works, so maybe I'll have to get to those games after all.
I'm right at the end of Spirit Tracks, but I just sort of quit playing it, lol. I'll get to it eventually... but I recently got an Xbox, as well as Fallout 3, Halo 3, and Oblivion; so the handheld Zeldas are sort of on a waiting list xP

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justonesp00lturn said:
Just because an earlier legend of Ganon hasn't been told, doesn't mean there weren't any. OoT doesn't mention the previous heroes or princesses, either.

Ganon is a known and constantly feared entity throughout the entirety of the Zelda franchise, so why would OoT be the only odd one out? For there to have been a Ganon before OoT, and for his legend to have died out in a world where legend is so strong, it must be so far before OoT that there wouldn't be any connection to it.

Plus, you may not hear it in the games, but the "Legend of Zelda" is constantly present. It's the reason all the princesses of the Hylian family are named Zelda.

Is Princess Zelda involved? I don't remember seeing or hearing about her.

Pretty sure she's been confirmed to appear.

This story is said to be the origin of the Master Sword. Since the Master Sword exists to conquer evil, or more specifically Ganon, it wouldn't surprise me if the game has a Ganon origin, rather than just a Ganondorf origin story.

But Ganon originated from Ganondorf, Ganondorf is his human form before he became a pig beast.
Plus it's not stated anywhere that the Master Sword was specifically created to destroy Ganon, it's just "The Sword of Evil's Bane". We know from FSA that the Four Sword can also kill Ganon.

I didn't play the Oracle games, but I was under the impression that they may not even be canon, having been devloped by Capcom rather than by Nintendo.

That's a constant fear of mine because the Oracle Games and Minish Cap are some of the most original titles in the series, and they have brilliant characters.

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SuperLink said:
justonesp00lturn said:
Just because an earlier legend of Ganon hasn't been told, doesn't mean there weren't any. OoT doesn't mention the previous heroes or princesses, either.

Ganon is a known and constantly feared entity throughout the entirety of the Zelda franchise, so why would OoT be the only odd one out? For there to have been a Ganon before OoT, and for his legend to have died out in a world where legend is so strong, it must be so far before OoT that there wouldn't be any connection to it.

Plus, you may not hear it in the games, but the "Legend of Zelda" is constantly present. It's the reason all the princesses of the Hylian family are named Zelda.

Is Princess Zelda involved? I don't remember seeing or hearing about her.

Pretty sure she's been confirmed to appear.

This story is said to be the origin of the Master Sword. Since the Master Sword exists to conquer evil, or more specifically Ganon, it wouldn't surprise me if the game has a Ganon origin, rather than just a Ganondorf origin story.

But Ganon originated from Ganondorf, Ganondorf is his human form before he became a pig beast.
Plus it's not stated anywhere that the Master Sword was specifically created to destroy Ganon, it's just "The Sword of Evil's Bane". We know from FSA that the Four Sword can also kill Ganon.

I didn't play the Oracle games, but I was under the impression that they may not even be canon, having been devloped by Capcom rather than by Nintendo.

That's a constant fear of mine because the Oracle Games and Minish Cap are some of the most original titles in the series, and they have brilliant characters.

There are plenty of games called "The Legend of Zelda" which make no mention of the princess at all.

Ganondorf may be his human form, but Ganon has appeared many times in which Ganondorf wasn't around. More often than not, in fact.

And anyway, his backstory is still different several times. Sometimes he's a prince, sometimes he's a theif, and then in Ocarina he's a diplomat.

He's also had to obtain the Triforce on more occasions than he already has it. In Ocarina, he's born with it, and he retains it forever. So if it's the same Ganondorf, why does he suddenly not have it so many times in the future?

It's all so confusing, haha.

One of the theories I find most interesting, but I don't necessarily subscribe to, is the theory that most of the games in the series are all actually re-tellings of the same central story or idea, thus the "legend" of Zelda is remembered differently throughout time, as many legends are.

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justonesp00lturn said:
There are plenty of games called "The Legend of Zelda" which make no mention of the princess at all.

This is because it's that same universe.
But every time there is a Princess Zelda present, the Legend of Zelda is behind it.

Ganondorf may be his human form, but Ganon has appeared many times in which Ganondorf wasn't around. More often than not, in fact.

This is because at some point in the series, Ganondorf lost his mind and transformed permanently into a beast.

And anyway, his backstory is still different several times. Sometimes he's a prince, sometimes he's a theif, and then in Ocarina he's a diplomat.

No, his backstory is only difference in OoT and FSA. Every other game only has him "returning"

He's also had to obtain the Triforce on more occasions than he already has it. In Ocarina, he's born with it, and he retains it forever. So if it's the same Ganondorf, why does he suddenly not have it so many times in the future?

He doesn't always retain it, the royal family make many attempts to scatter it. Plus, Ganon only has the Triforce of Power with him most of the time, he has to work to collect the other pieces.

And there are many more undefined events in the franchise that could explain why he loses it.

It's generally accepted within the fanbase atleast that Ganon is always the same chap, and we know this for sure in OoT/WW/TP. Seeing as Ganon only has backstory in 2 colliding games, all his other appearances are "revivals" and "returns"

One of the theories I find most interesting, but I don't necessarily subscribe to, is the theory that most of the games in the series are all actually re-tellings of the same central story or idea, thus the "legend" of Zelda is remembered differently throughout time, as many legends are.

This may be true in some titles, but...

----------WW - PH - ST
SS - OoT
----------MM - TP

All have defined places within the timeline, presumably around the start.

( Edited 29.07.2010 11:23 by SuperLink )

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SuperLink said:

This is because it's that same universe.
But every time there is a Princess Zelda present, the Legend of Zelda is behind it.

Yeah... but so do the ones in which she isn't present.

SuperLink said:

This is because at some point in the series, Ganondorf lost his mind and transformed permanently into a beast.

This one just makes no sense. That would mean that every game in which he appears in beast form but not human form takes place after Twilight Princess, which he died at the end of...
Unless, I guess, Twilight Princess is meant to depict the death of his human form, forcing him to press on exclusively in beast form.
But then again, Ganondorf appears again in Four Swords, which takes place after every game made thus far...

SuperLink said:

No, his backstory is only difference in OoT and FSA. Every other game only has him "returning"

That's true. However, I still find it odd that he's been sealed away so many times, and then he just magically comes back, lol. There are a few occasions which explicitly state he escaped imprisonment (Twilight Princess, A Link to the Past) but most of the time, he's just there.

SuperLink said:

He doesn't always retain it, the royal family make many attempts to scatter it. Plus, Ganon only has the Triforce of Power with him most of the time, he has to work to collect the other pieces.

I don't recall the Triforce of Power ever being split. In the first game, it's the Triforce of Wisdom that was shattered. In the other games, and this may be a memory lapse on my part, but I'm pretty sure in the rest, it's the entire Triforce (if it shows up at all.)

SuperLink said:

And there are many more undefined events in the franchise that could explain why he loses it.

How does an undefined event explain anything?

SuperLink said:

It's generally accepted within the fanbase atleast that Ganon is always the same chap, and we know this for sure in OoT/WW/TP. Seeing as Ganon only has backstory in 2 colliding games, all his other appearances are "revivals" and "returns"

"Generally accepted" means nothing to me. The fanbase "generally accepts" Four Swords Adventures as a prequel to A Link to the Past, despite Aounuma explicitly stating it's the latest game in the series, because "the gameplay is similar."
If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that believing something just because most or a lot of people also believe it is pretty irrational.
Consequently, if you Google "more than one Ganondorf" and look at the various pages you're given, most of them are forums filled with people acting like the thought that there isn't more than one Ganondorf is ridiclous (which I also don't think is that obvious. It's never really explained to be either way.)

SuperLink said:

This may be true in some titles, but...

----------WW - PH - ST
SS - OoT
----------MM - TP

All have defined places within the timeline, presumably around the start.

Yes, the theory doesn't account for direct sequels. But those could be other legends branching off.
Think about the old King Arthur myths, for example. There are differing accounts of the various stories, with vast contradictions including the bloodlines and even deaths of certain characters within the mythology. This is how a lot of legends end up. And they tend to have a lot of side stories, too.
It's an interesting idea, at least. It also would account for why most of the games have the same basic plot ("Oh noes, evil man come and take teh triforce! He kidnapped the Princess what do we do? Who could have seen this coming, it's only happened like fifteen times in our kingdom's history!" -> "I'll save ye!" *slay* -> "Curse you! Now I'm stuck in a realm or a mirror or a sword!" -> "My hero!" -> "You are a lady but I won't have sex with you because I'm a gay OH RIGHT IN MY ONE PIECE" etc. etc. etc.)

NNID: crackedthesky
My blog, mostly about writing: http://www.davidjlovato.com

justonesp00lturn said:

Yeah... but so do the ones in which she isn't present.

No I mean the royal family has this legend it passes down that decrees all princesses be named Zelda.

That's what the "legend of Zelda" is. The title remains the same for games that don't include for the same reason the title of the Metroid series is Metroid even in games with no Metroids...

This one just makes no sense. That would mean that every game in which he appears in beast form but not human form takes place after Twilight Princess, which he died at the end of...
Unless, I guess, Twilight Princess is meant to depict the death of his human form, forcing him to press on exclusively in beast form.

You haven't been listening, Ganon dies many times and is resurrected many times. Ganondorf appears to die in TP, but even so, it could easily be succeeded by the Oracle series or LttP.

But I suppose the death of his human form is also entirely possible. I personally don't dig the idea that Ganon and Ganondorf are seperate entities, it kinda demeans Ganondorf.

But then again, Ganondorf appears again in Four Swords, which takes place after every game made thus far...

FSA is a bit of an inconsistency, it may have some erroneous writing or something, idk.


That's true. However, I still find it odd that he's been sealed away so many times, and then he just magically comes back, lol. There are a few occasions which explicitly state he escaped imprisonment (Twilight Princess, A Link to the Past) but most of the time, he's just there.

The only game where he's "just there" is the original LoZ, which I guess is because storytelling in games back then was shallow. In Zelda II and the Oracle series he's being revived from the dead.

I don't recall the Triforce of Power ever being split. In the first game, it's the Triforce of Wisdom that was shattered. In the other games, and this may be a memory lapse on my part, but I'm pretty sure in the rest, it's the entire Triforce (if it shows up at all.)

In LttP the Triforce was complete and sealed in the Golden Land, which Ganon was able to enter thanks to Agahnim. This could take place after a previous game where the Triforce was actually completed (like WW)

In WW, TP, and the Oracle series, the Triforce is gathered in the same way as in OoT (although it doesn't mean much in the Oracle games)


How does an undefined event explain anything?

For all we know there are centuries or millenia between certain games in the timeline, meaning there are plenty of oppurtunities for plot holes to be filled.

"Generally accepted" means nothing to me. The fanbase "generally accepts" Four Swords Adventures as a prequel to A Link to the Past, despite Aounuma explicitly stating it's the latest game in the series, because "the gameplay is similar."

This is the first I've heard of that.

If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that believing something just because most or a lot of people also believe it is pretty irrational.

Fair enough, but I believe it because it makes perfect sense to me.

legend stuff

Yeah I get the theory, I don't really like it myself though. I really like the idea that there's some kind of huge overarcing plot.

"You are a lady but I won't have sex with you because I'm a gay OH RIGHT IN MY ONE PIECE" etc. etc. etc.)

Smilie Smilie

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SuperLink said:

No I mean the royal family has this legend it passes down that decrees all princesses be named Zelda.

That's what the "legend of Zelda" is. The title remains the same for games that don't include for the same reason the title of the Metroid series is Metroid even in games with no Metroids...

Oh, okay. I see what you mean.

SuperLink said:
You haven't been listening, Ganon dies many times and is resurrected many times. Ganondorf appears to die in TP, but even so, it could easily be succeeded by the Oracle series or LttP.

But I suppose the death of his human form is also entirely possible. I personally don't dig the idea that Ganon and Ganondorf are seperate entities, it kinda demeans Ganondorf.

I think it makes more sense than having Ganon die many times, but somehow Ganondorf survives that, even though he's the one who turned into Ganon in the first place.
I see them as separate entities because, basically, it's happened before. Ganon has taken forms besides Ganondorf, or at least had other servants or people through which he was able to be resurrected.

But I actually think it's the other way around; that Ganondorf dies, but Ganon lives on. He gets banished to some realm or dissipates for a while, and when a new Ganondorf comes around, either through the Gerudo line or by some other means, it's basically the result of Ganon having regained his power and re-created his human vessel, through which he can return to the regular realm once Ganondorf retrieves the Triforce of Power.

SuperLink said:
FSA is a bit of an inconsistency, it may have some erroneous writing or something, idk.

A lot of people seem to think that. Being one of the later games made, I don't think it's as prone to errors in consistency as that. It is a side game, and like I said, a lot of those seem to be more fleible when it comes to the canon, but I don't think it deserves to be entirely ruled out (especially since the side games seem to outnumber the console games, these days.)

SuperLink said:The only game where he's "just there" is the original LoZ, which I guess is because storytelling in games back then was shallow. In Zelda II and the Oracle series he's being revived from the dead.

You're going to hate me for going back to FSA, but he just pops back into that one, too, haha.
I don't remember, but I think he's also just there in Wind Waker, too (though that's likely because he wasn't quite done away with, since Link went bye-bye in Ocarina.)
I don't remember how it happened in Twilight Princess (I remember more of the Zant stuff, to be honest.) I can't believe how much I've forgotten, haha. I'm ashamed. Smilie

SuperLink said:
For all we know there are centuries or millenia between certain games in the timeline, meaning there are plenty of oppurtunities for plot holes to be filled.

This is true, and that's basically what I'm saying. It's perfectly plausible for Ganon and/or Ganondorf to be involved with Skyward Sword, because the timeline is so flexible.

SuperLink said:This is the first I've heard of that.

I've heard it a few times, and it's even mentioned on ZeldaWiki, if that means anything. Aonuma very much said it takes place last thus far, but the majority of the fanbase discounts that and puts it directly before A Link to the Past, because the two are similar (apparently, they didn't notice that the two were similar because they were ON THE SAME CARTRIDGE, or something.)


SuperLink said:
Yeah I get the theory, I don't really like it myself though. I really like the idea that there's some kind of huge overarcing plot.

Same here. I think it's very interesting, but besides not holding water when it comes to side-stories, it's basically a "the wizard did it" type of excuse, on the part of the storytellers. It makes it a bit too flexible, I think.

SuperLink said:
Smilie Smilie

Haha xD I wasn't sure if anyone would get that Smilie

( Edited 29.07.2010 16:29 by justonesp00lturn )

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justonesp00lturn said:
I think it makes more sense than having Ganon die many times, but somehow Ganondorf survives that, even though he's the one who turned into Ganon in the first place.
I see them as separate entities because, basically, it's happened before. Ganon has taken forms besides Ganondorf, or at least had other servants or people through which he was able to be resurrected.

Well we know from OoT, WW and TP that Ganon comes from Ganondorf, so I don't think it's Ganondorf being possessed by Ganon. Also Nintendo have stated in interviews that Ganondorf is Ganon's human form, implying atleast on some level that they're the same person.

In WindWaker, Ganondorf freely transforms into Ganon and takes many forms asides from the piglike one. Ganon taking other non-human forms doesn't mean he's seperate from Ganondorf.

But I actually think it's the other way around; that Ganondorf dies, but Ganon lives on. He gets banished to some realm or dissipates for a while, and when a new Ganondorf comes around, either through the Gerudo line or by some other means, it's basically the result of Ganon having regained his power and re-created his human vessel, through which he can return to the regular realm once Ganondorf retrieves the Triforce of Power.

As I've said before, OoT has no legends of any demon king, whereas Ganon's legend is present he is known and feared, in almost every title after that point.

The fact that the legends of the goddesses who created Hyrule, and the Dark Interlopers are still remembered even in TP's time makes it very hard to me to believe that they could just forget about a previous Ganon.

You're going to hate me for going back to FSA, but he just pops back into that one, too, haha.
I don't remember, but I think he's also just there in Wind Waker, too (though that's likely because he wasn't quite done away with, since Link went bye-bye in Ocarina.)

Wind Waker's intro explains how Ganon escaped the Sacred Realm after OoT, but noone was there to stop him and so Hyrule was flooded.

He even recognises Link's clothing and thinks he's part of the same bloodline (even though he's not)

I don't remember how it happened in Twilight Princess (I remember more of the Zant stuff, to be honest.) I can't believe how much I've forgotten, haha. I'm ashamed. Smilie

After OoT, Link returns to the past and him and young Zelda have Ganondorf arrested. He is then trialled by the previous sages at the Arbiter's Grounds, and in their anger they foolishly banish him to the Twilight Realm where he begins to manipulate Zant.

This is true, and that's basically what I'm saying. It's perfectly plausible for Ganon and/or Ganondorf to be involved with Skyward Sword, because the timeline is so flexible.

I don't think so simply because no fear or legend of him exists in OoT, where even the beginning of Hyrule is still chronicled.

I've heard it a few times, and it's even mentioned on ZeldaWiki, if that means anything. Aonuma very much said it takes place last thus far, but the majority of the fanbase discounts that and puts it directly before A Link to the Past, because the two are similar (apparently, they didn't notice that the two were similar because they were ON THE SAME CARTRIDGE, or something.)

Pretty much every Zelda theory in existence is on ZeldaWiki, even extremely farfetch'd ones.

Also I guess the reasoning behind that is that the Four Sword actually appears in Link to the Past. People wonder about the canonicity of that appearance though, seeing as it was a GBA extra.

Honestly I genuinely hope Ganon isn't the villain of SS.

He's become an incredibly stale and boring villain that hasn't felt truly inspired or frightening since Ocarina of Time. Setting a game before OoT is the perfect opportunity to create some amazing original lore.

( Edited 29.07.2010 16:53 by SuperLink )

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What I meant was that Ganondorf is his human form, but being a human one, has to be recycled now and then.

Twilight Princess is only a hundred years after Ocarina. Yeah, it seems unlikely that they'd recall the creation story in Ocarina but no previous legends, but obviously, this is the case, as there is now at least one game officially taking place before it.
Besides, some details of legends have been shown to be incorrect before. In LttP, for example, it says the seven sages were all old men, whereas Ocarina shows this was clearly not the case.

But anyway, like I said, so far I don't have any reason to believe Skyward Sword takes place in Hyrule at all. It most likely will, in some capacity, but I think things will become clear as more details come out about the game.

I'll have to disagree on your assessment of Ganon as a character, for the most part. I thought he was rather interesting in Wind Waker, and I think he was more menacing and epic in Twilight Princess. He was definitely the deepest in Ocarina. I think they just need to try new things with him. Probably because whenever Ganon isn't around, I can't really escape the feeling that the game is a side-story; the eception being Majora's Mask. That game was just as massive and epic as Ocarina was, and Majora and Skull Kid pulled off the villainy very well. But characters like Vaati, Zant, and the dude from Spirit Tracks just bore me. If they're going to go with a different antagonist, I hope it's an interesting one.

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justonesp00lturn said:

Twilight Princess is only a hundred years after Ocarina. Yeah, it seems unlikely that they'd recall the creation story in Ocarina but no previous legends, but obviously, this is the case, as there is now at least one game officially taking place before it.

They don't often recall the legends of other villains in the Zelda franchise though, so we don't know that there won't be an original villain.

The legends are there, but they're not called upon pointlessly.

If there was a pre-existing legend about Ganon from before OoT (which there would be), then it would be recalled and the king would never have even allowed him to be ambassador. The royal family of Hyrule just don't forget important things like that, it's a little ridiculous.

Plus not even the Gerudo themselves couldn't recall a previous instance this happened, even in their ancestral family.

Plus SS could well be based around the Dark Interlopers, which we already know the legend of.

Besides, some details of legends have been shown to be incorrect before. In LttP, for example, it says the seven sages were all old men, whereas Ocarina shows this was clearly not the case.

Actually if LttP is in TP's timeline this could be the case, because the 7 sages in TP are old men (the water sage is killed by Ganondorf).

This is because in TP's timeline, OoT's new seven sages never awakened.

But anyway, like I said, so far I don't have any reason to believe Skyward Sword takes place in Hyrule at all. It most likely will, in some capacity, but I think things will become clear as more details come out about the game.

Like I said before the presence of Princess Zelda makes me think it'll be in Hyrule at some point, unless she's travelling like in the Oracle series.

But characters like Vaati, Zant, and the dude from Spirit Tracks just bore me. If they're going to go with a different antagonist, I hope it's an interesting one.

Zant wasn't terrible, but Vaati was awesome! I find it weird that you didn't like him.

I think relying on Ganondorf just because Nintendo suck at making new villains is a little lame. Isn't at about time they showed they can still write good original characters?

By the time he appeared in TP after an almost pretty damn interesting original villain, it was less a case of "oh what a surprise!" and more a case of "why am I not surprised?"

I just want them to give him a break so I can actually feel genuinely threatened by him at some point again in the series' future.

( Edited 29.07.2010 17:32 by SuperLink )

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