Shin'en's Manfred Linzner Discuss Wii U Shaders, eRam Usage

By Jorge Ba-oh 19.07.2013 6

Shin

Graphical gurus Shin'en are renowned for pushing the visual boundaries and Manfred Linzner has spoken in detail about the Wii U spec.

Linzner had praised the Wii U's development potential previously, but has recently gone into more detail into the nitty-gritty of what the system is capable of with some thought.

He started by comparing the eDRAM usage in the Wii U to the Xbox 360, where on Nintendo's system "you have enough eDRAM to use if for 1080p rendering", but on the "XBOX 360 you usually had to render in sub 720p resolutions or in multiple passes."

In general, development for Wii U CPU+GPU is simple. You don't need complicated setups or workarounds for things like HDR (High Dynamic Range) or linear RGB (Color Modeling). What we also like is that there are plenty of possibilities for speeding up your rendering and code, but you don't have to dig deep for them to get proper performance.

Linzner used the critically acclaimed Nano Assault Neo as an example of a Wii U project where the shaders "are not really optimised" because they were "fast enough" and that they could be made 30-40% faster "by better pipeline usage or better hints for the shader compiler."

Shin'en didn't have issues running Nano Assault Neo at 60fps on both the TV and GamePad simultaneously, revealing that "for CPU usage Nano Assault Neo only used the main CPU core. The two other cores were almost idle, beside a few percent used for our audio thread."

What are your thought's on Linzner's comments and potential for future Nintendo Wii U development?

Box art for Nano Assault Neo
Developer

Shin'en

Publisher

Majesco

Genre

Shooter

Players

2

C3 Score

Rated $score out of 10  7/10

Reader Score

Rated $score out of 10  9/10 (1 Votes)

European release date Out now   North America release date Out now   Japan release date TBA   Australian release date Out now   

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jb is offline. jb 19.07.2013#1

Wii U has a lot more potential than people give it, Shin'en have done a top job optimising it and they're third party. Others really need to take note!

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Paladinrja is offline. Paladinrja 19.07.2013#2

jb said:
Wii U has a lot more potential than people give it, Shin'en have done a top job optimising it and they're third party. Others really need to take note!

Absolutely. In as far as next-gen system design goes, a distinction both the X1 & Wii U share, the new Nintendo system epitomises those engineering qualities.
Fast interconnected machines encompassed by multi-level cache regions and globalized by a huge primary cache, having deep, wide page files and minimal external RAM. Essentially putting as little on the external bus as possibke is all very next-gen engineering semantic.

Without meaning to anger Sony fans, the Wii U is actually the polar opposite in memory hierachy to the PS4 a haute x86 version of the PS3 design, with greater overall performance. Large external bus RAM that by definition is distinctly last-gen; where next-gen in these closed systems (and indeed all devices) are using modern memory hierachy.

If groups like Shi'nen identify that in hindsight, further optimization of the pipe nets them tighter code by 40% at minimum, then it suggests quite clearly that getting close to the metal is deep indeed.

 
Yaman (guest) 19.07.2013#3

Now if only they could get third parties to make some games it.

Canyarion is offline. Canyarion 20.07.2013#4

Developers that took the time to invest in the hardware and games: "Wii U is strong and awesome."
Developers that are too lazy for that: "Wii U is weak and terrible."

Smilie

 
Darkflame is offline. Darkflame 21.07.2013#5

""are not really optimised" because they were "fast enough" and that they could be made 30-40% faster "by better pipeline usage or better hints for the shader compiler.""


Honest developers FTW! 

Seriously, I get fed up with developers who claim they cant do better on a system - even when other developers clearly have already.
If the restriction is time or budget thats absolutely fine! If its learning the hardware, not a problem.

I sometimes think a lot of them are scared to be honest, and have to pretend everything they do is "pushing it to the max!".
I cant remember the last time a developer said they could optimise their work better if they needed too Smilie

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J4K is offline. J4K 22.07.2013#6

Large external bus RAM that by definition is distinctly last-gen; where next-gen in these closed systems (and indeed all devices) are using modern memory hierachy.

Exactly how is an eDRAM buffer "next gen" or "cutting edge" when the 360 has had one for 8 years?

Anyhow, choosing to declare one as "next-gen" and one as "not" is a matter of semantics and frankly irrelevant. Implying the unified memory architecture of the PS4 with 8GBs of DDR5 RAM isn't cutting edge engineering is kind of funny.

Also trying to say the PS4 is an x86 version of the PS3 is simply inaccurate. They're worlds apart in so many ways, from concept to implementation; the distinction actually starts with the RAM. The PS3 used a split RAM architecture: 256 MB for video memory, 256 MB for the Cell processor. Part of the reasoning to go unified with the PS4 was due to feedback from developers that they wanted a simplified memory system. Already this point right here shows a different mindset when developing the PS4 verses Sony's approach with the PS3.

In fact, slighting the PS4's memory setup shows general ignorance of why the Wii U and XB1 use eDRAM caches in the first place: DDR3 RAM is significantly bandwidth limited. In order to get around the fact that DDR3 isn't fast enough they have to implement complex caching schemes. What did Sony do instead of adding yet another buffer level? 

They used a vast 8GB pool of bandwidth rich GDDR5 RAM. RAM that is fast enough to the point you don't need pools of eDRAM floating around. It's a high-tech solution that developers are in love with. Developers are coming out of the woodworks to talk about what Sony has done, including folks like John Carmack who really know what they're talking about. You don't see that same level of enthusiasm for the complicated caching scheme used by XB1 and Wii U in comparison.

 

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