Turn-Based Battles

After reading an article on IGN about the Paper Mario franchise, particularly highlighting Super Paper Mario as a one-off, I got curious.

I absolutely loved Super Paper Mario and I'd put it as my general favourite out of the two I've played (the other being The Thousand Year Door). What I really loved about the gameplay was the fluidness of it all. No longer did you have to keep stopping and being forced into a turned-based battle, instead you could simply jump on enemies. They still kept some RPG elements in though, like items you could use to help you along your adventure and the Pixls provided some variety, allowing you to perform new moves and such. And of course, you still levelled up, making Mario stronger.

That said, I still enjoyed The Thousand Year Door, it had a fantastic story and great quality to it, but the turned-based battles did become tiresome at points. It did get me thinking though, because I wondered why turned-based battles were more favoured amongst fans over the fluid pace of Super Paper Mario. I don't want Paper Mario to be the focus here though, since I'm speaking about turned-based battles in a general sense.

From my perspective, I see it like this - It's like going to your favourite place in your car and then on the way there you have to keep stopping and going, stopping and going. I don't think anyone enjoys that and of course, they would want clearer roads so they get there smoothly and in less time.

So my question is, do you like turned-based battles and also why? I'd love to hear people opinions and thoughts on them, whether they like them or don't like them.

I really despise turn based combat mainly because so much of it feels the same and it's so damn slow - especially in something like Pokemon and random encounters - it gets aggravating. It also feels very similar, I'm not applying this to all turn based combat here, but I've played one pokemon game from start to finish and I've tried to play others after but I just can't be bothered.

It's why I find the final fantasy franchise exhausted. Similarly you could say that about most modern games these days, but TBC in general I find makes me not come back to a game more than any other game element. Well, that and JRPG's.

Love hate relationship.. random encounters and encounter rates are just always frustrating always I think. I mostly dislike them because it's a bit of a lazy development option, any Japanese RPG will just throw in a few simple turn based battles and call itself a 'video game' when it's usually selling something else completely (like fanservice or something).

When a developer puts effort into making a turn based system work well, or be clever and unique (good example is persona, even better example is Paper Mario), I do like turn based battles.

I also do like Pokémon's battle system but I wish it would evolve and become a bit more.. skill based? Less reliant on things like stats, EVs and levels. Case in point is the Battle Tower sections in Pokémon games, battle after battle, your level is set to something like 50 and the AI is ridiculously good, when you lose you start from the beginning.

Challenging sure, but also time consuming, boring, just not really 'fun' if you ask me!

So yep mixed bag which is mostly bad due to the fact that JRPGs are generally lazy and bad with some exceptions.

Turn based battles should be fast paced, and feel seamless but also not frustrating or confusing, this is done way less commonly than it should be. No one wants to pick a move then watch an automated battle sequence for like 30 seconds to get through a battle when the animation only ever looked cool the first time.

A bit of a rant maybe but yeah in conclusion I don't wish for the death of JRPGs or even turn based combat I just wish.. developers would take more care with it. It really can't be that hard to make your battle system more interesting i.e. Persona/Paper Mario

I find that turn based combat can be a good thing if you want to enjoy something else at the same time. That's why the genre was invented in the first place anyway. You can let your mind off the game and do something else at the same time, like chatting away on your laptop or on the phone without any fear of being so distracted that battling and levelling up your character becomes impossible altogether.

I often have a mate at home who likes to simply watch me play (it's not selfish on my part, he has a problem with his hands made stiff by a muscular problem) and we chat a lot at the same time... and I find that it's easier to hold a conversation while playing a turn-based RPG than a real time action one. Having such variety helps me have different kinds of games to play for different times and different circumstances. I like it that way.

That's a good point actually there was a point I played a handheld and main console RPG at the same time just because I could.

Interesting question. Frankly, I can't be doing with turn-based any more. Back in the day, I could sit for hours every day, grinding and farming happily. But these days, I just can't justify sitting on my arse in my spare time to do it. Over the years, it's become tedious. As much as I love RPGs and the stories, doing this same thing over has become tiresome. I'll put up with it for FF, but in general now, I don't have the patience.

Same goes for random encounters. Hate them now. Adored FFXII and XIII for doing away with them, and was saddened they came back in XIII-2. If it has to be in there, always include no encounter abilities.

I love turn-based battles, mainly because they are a nice change of pace and much like Rudy said, they allow me to be distracted. When I was replaying Pokémon FireRed a week ago I watched some Let's Play's at the same time (I don't watch TV anymore) and it was really cool. My first real RPG was Final Fantasy III DS, so perhaps that also played a part in it.

Are people considering the ATB system from many Final Fantasy games starting at FFIV turn-based as well? You still choose commands but at maximum battle speed and in Active rather than Wait mode they feel far from strictly turn-based ones like Pokémon or FFI, II and III.

Looking at the replies from SuperLink and Az, you guys sound more like you dislike other elements that usually accompany turn-based battle systems, such as grinding, farming or random encounters. Let's say there's a game with no grinding (bosses are challenging and doable as long as you don't avoid/run from absolutely everything), no random encounters and no farming for money, abilities like Blue Magic etc. Would you like a turn-based battle system a lot more in this case or would your opinions still be the same?

( Edited 10.08.2012 20:15 by SirLink )

I've rarely ever played in Wait mode. But I suppose I am looking at RPGs as a whole  there, and not so much the battles themselves. If you removed the things you mentioned, yeah, I could have more fun with those types of games. Once I remove no encounters in FFVIII or X, I can enjoy things much better (of course I enjoyed them in the past with encounters, but replaying today I have to get rid). I'd be interested to know if there are any RPGs like that, though.

I enjoy turn-based combat. I believe they definitely have their place in gaming. So many games, even (especially?) the oldest, require the player to have skillful hands and reflexes. Timing jumps in a platformer, reacting quickly to an enemy in a shooter, taking a turn without hitting a wall in racer, etc. A game with turn-based combat takes almost all of that away, which can be very nice. It replaces the above skills with different mental skills. Instead of relying on your lightning quick reflexes, you can take your sweet time to ponder the best move, not just for that moment, but for your long-term strategy. And the turn-based combat is usually governed by stats, which the player can manipulate between battles. To draw an analogy with "real-life" games, turn-based games would be more like checkers or chess, while many other video games would be more like a game of darts or whack-a-mole. I sometimes am frustrated by other games because my reflexes aren't quick enough or my fingers are subtle enough. Turn-based battles are a welcome relief from that.

However, I share many of the others complaints with turn-based games. Random encounters become annoying. Fighting small bad guys is no fun. I feel obligated to fight them to gain the necessary experience points, but otherwise they are a waste of my time. Turn-based combat itself is usually only fun when you're fighting some kind of major enemy. Those battle are when you are thinking and strategizing, and those are the enemies your prepare your characters for.

I think Knights of the Old Republic handled combat well. It was turn-based, but you never entered some kind of "battle screen" and there were no random encounters. There were various enemies scattered throughout the hostile parts of the world, but often you could choose to stay away from them or sneak around them. I feel like there were more major battles, too. The battles have more purpose when the enemy is an important character and not just a palette swap of some thing you beat three levels ago. Also, your characters earned experience from things besides battles, which cuts down on the compulsion to fight minions for the sake of experience points. There should be more of this kind of thing in turn-based RPGs. This seems to be a more Western approach to turn-based combat, and I approve.

( Edited 10.08.2012 23:13 by TAG )

I kind of flip-flop with this. Sometimes I really like it, sometimes I get bored of it.

I would say that competitive pokemon battling is such brilliant fun that I pray to God that turn-based battles never die.

As SuperLink said, fluid battle systems can hide turn based combat really well, for instance whilst it wasn't particularly brilliant, Lord of The Rings: Third Age had a really fluid system. You knew when you were about to hit a battle (the eye would gradually light up in the corner) and you would be picking your moves on the fly and the order of battle would change randomly always keeping action happening on screen.

The thing that gets me about TBC is that it just hasn't evolved very much from the start, some people like that, some don't. Pokemon hasn't done anything to try to change, Final Fantasy has branched out a little but you can practically let that game play itself once you've set up your commands in XIII.

I haven't found a TBC game for a while that felt 'intuitive' and had a reason for that type of combat.

I think I used to like turn based way more when I was younger. Now that I realize how precious time really is, my opinion has changed on them. I don't want to spend my time grinding away as it seems like a huge waste of time to me. However, when done right, I think it can be engaging. Chrono Trigger was like a hybrid of turn based and real time which was awesome. The Mario RPG's also do it in an engaging way. This time it's an active turn based system where you have to press buttons and get timings right. I feel more direct control in these situations rather than just sitting back, picking from a menu, and watching an animation.

I don't play too many RPGs, party because of the turn-based battles and random encounters.

I do like Pokémon, but I always wish they'd improve the battle formula.
Time-based > turn-based. It would make 'fast' attacks work, like tackle. You could opt for multiple weaker attacks or 1 strong attack. Maybe they could even make a dodge move work.
Max 6 learned moves > max learned 4 moves. Maybe they could only allow 4 offensive moves and 2 defensive (double team, leer, etc.).
Voice commands.

In a general sense I don't really like turn-based battles.

It's not an immediately approachable system, and it can be boring and slow. However, in Paper Mario it's central to the the experience of the game. It would no longer be the same game were it not for that battle system, and what a wonderful game it undoubtedly is. I think it works for me as it has the necessary depth in it's battle system to be rewarding, without being unintuitive and overly monotonous. It creates a storybook pace.

But certainly most of the time I don't want it. But it's much like a peshwari naan bread - I love it, and it's a great accompaniment to a chicken madras, but I wouldn't have it with much else.

Half the time TBC feels lazy because they couldn't be bothered to put a decent combat system in. They've just tagged up some TBC into the mix. Look at Last Story and Xenoblade for Christ Sake! Even KH: Chain of Memories worked it's way around it!