Religion

Q: What was there before the Big Bang?

A: Nothing

I have a very strong belief that there was something before the big bang. For some reason a lot of theoretical types have closed their minds to this possibility even though it makes little to no sense.

Beam said:

Well I study physics at university, and the more I study it the more I can see what a wonderful creation it is, however it came about. But the thing is, if you go from basic principles like the big bang, and study them and trace it right the way through to intelligent life forming - its all incredably finely tuned. Infact, any slight difference in the universe would mean that life wouldn't form. Statistically it is totally impossible for it to be a complete accident, and therefore physics proves that there MUST be a creator - and the existance of life MUST have been the purpose of the the universe.

Science is about, "What are the rules?" You are asking, "Who made the rules?" which is a valid question. The problem from a scientific standpoint with the Bible is not only that the claims of divinity cannot be proven. Many of the rules we have found contradicts what was said in the Bible. Based on the half-life of elements like Uranium, we figure the Earth is about 4.5-5.5 Billion years old. And the universe is about 10-30 Billion years old with what we know depending on who you ask (though this estimate is far less reliable).

So if you are saying that God said, "let there be light," why do we see stars forming from surrounding gasses. If the Earth isn't 5 Billion years old, why did God make it seem that way? By believing Genesis you are not only saying that God made the rules, you are saying that he covered his tracks as well.

TBH I'm not that 'up' on any religion, heck I could have been baptised and not know it, but I beleive in science and evolution, that's how I am so xcuse the ignorance in this question beam.

Does the new testament/genesis talk of God creting life with Adam and Eve?

This is the one main problem I have with Cristianity, though I respectthe religion as I do all others, it seems to me from my uninformed stance that the whole Adam&Eve thing is the biggest flaw (scientifically) in the religious stance.

Heck, the last few vod&red bulls and stella with my mate may be a reason not to post in this thread, but really we have evoloved to what we are - we were not created as we are - I'm just curious how chrittianity explains this scientifically.

Beam wrote: ...the old testament is considered to be quite insignificant compared to the new testament...

By who?
Who decides which bits of the Bible are still relevant and which aren't? And unless there is universal agreement to these 'changes', surely hardly anyone has a chance of getting into Heaven.

Science is about, "What are the rules?" You are asking, "Who made the rules?" which is a valid question. The problem from a scientific standpoint with the Bible is not only that the claims of divinity cannot be proven. Many of the rules we have found contradicts what was said in the Bible. Based on the half-life of elements like Uranium, we figure the Earth is about 4.5-5.5 Billion years old. And the universe is about 10-30 Billion years old with what we know depending on who you ask (though this estimate is far less reliable).

So if you are saying that God said, "let there be light," why do we see stars forming from surrounding gasses. If the Earth isn't 5 Billion years old, why did God make it seem that way? By believing Genesis you are not only saying that God made the rules, you are saying that he covered his tracks as well.

Does the new testament/genesis talk of God creting life with Adam and Eve?

This is the one main problem I have with Cristianity, though I respectthe religion as I do all others, it seems to me from my uninformed stance that the whole Adam&Eve thing is the biggest flaw (scientifically) in the religious stance.

The old testament was written thousends of years ago by Jewish people, basically it talks about the origins of the earth and the history of the Jewish people. It was simply what Jewish people believed and still believe (yes, this is to do with christianity, because Jesus was a Jew and thats where this all ties in). The ideas in the old testament were that God was to be feared, and that we were totally unworthy of being in his presence. Now when Jesus came and saved us, and we were forgiven for our sins, the bounderies between believers and God were broken down. A lot of the old testament became irrelevent there and then. But it is included in the Bible really for completeness sake, and historical value. The new testament was written less than 2000 years ago mainly by people who knew Jesus and it talks about his work and the spread of christianity.

Infact, some of the more compact Bibles you can get only contain the new testament. The new testament dosn't even talk about the creation apart from only briefly when it said that God created all things from the power of the "word" - now I think that suggests more that he made rules rather than directly created earth and people.

Who decides which bits of the Bible are still relevant and which aren't? And unless there is universal agreement to these 'changes', surely hardly anyone has a chance of getting into Heaven.

[ Edited by beamrider2600 on 2005/1/14 0:02 ]

Heh this is getting cool, but I gotta say to the atheists among us If I kicked you would it hurt?
I'm of no religion... for reasons beyond my control.
Oh and If god created us then who created god?
And if god is everywhere, does that mean he's in my pants?

Oh and If god created us then who created god?

And if god is everywhere, does that mean he's in my pants?

... Ahh! Then should I let him out cause it's probably really cramped in there *starts to un zip pants*

Beam wrote: ...all you have to do to "get into heaven" is believe in Jesus

So then, it doesn't matter what denomination you are, you get into Heaven regardless? So Catholics, Evangelicals, the KKK and everyone else are all in Heaven, alongside Hitler and so forth...? That can't be right...

And even if The Bible was not just written by man, it has surely been continuously edited and amended by man through the centuries. Do "modern" Bibles even bear much similarity to the original document?

Science really interests me, I once said I think evolution is bullshit and so is the bigbang but now that I have learned much more and actually become really interested in science. By the way people, you can believe in evolution and the big bang and still believe in god. My god (allah) says he created humans from bactetria, which was what us human evolved from.

At the moment, I mostly believe in science seeing that it is the most probable. But that doesn't mean I refuse that god exists, there could very well be other dimensions we don't know about or a viel over our eyes from seeing reality, but as I said before, I look for the most probable. So I am partly athesist and party muslim.

I believe there is nothing wrong with being either, I think all of us need to respect other peoples faiths because for all the religions, THERE IS NO PROOF. Religion shouldn't coz wars and coz hatred, it is a good thing because it is good to have diversity in our world....and you never know, the other religions might actually make more sense to you than your previous if take the time to learn about it.

tempo wrote:
The point in rhetorical questions, well I could go into the history of the word rhetoric and it being used as a sign of status and interlect in England a few hundred years ago and how its overuse resulted in its ultimate demise and declassification as a recognised form of 'intelligent' English...but I wont. Oh no wait...sorry

haha i dont know if that was intentional but thats one of the most intelligent posts i have ever read... very clever.

So then, it doesn't matter what denomination you are, you get into Heaven regardless? So Catholics, Evangelicals, the KKK and everyone else are all in Heaven, alongside Hitler and so forth...? That can't be right...

You see, when you do believe in Jesus, and you are a christian, you're filled with the holy spirit which guides you away from sin and makes you a good person. So people who claim to be christians that aren't good people are clearly lying, they don't truly believe in Jesus, they can't do, its impossible. True it dosn't make you perfect straight away, its a progressive thing and it happens slowly.

And even if The Bible was not just written by man, it has surely been continuously edited and amended by man through the centuries. Do "modern" Bibles even bear much similarity to the original document?

The Bible WAS written by man - no-one is trying to claim otherwise. But its special becuase God uses the Bible to speak to us.

[ Edited by beamrider2600 on 2005/1/14 15:15 ]

I am a religious person. I don't go to church, but I belive in god.

I'm no expert on the matter, but I like to think that if you live your life, and be a good person while you are alive, you will go to heaven. Regardless of who you worship, and what your practices are.

Alright, another Christian entering the fray. From doing RE and gaining an understanding of other religions, I have found that nearly every religion is flawed. There is something that probably has a reason, but it just does not make sense to me, and seems to go against the flow of what religion is trying to teach. Although I was Christened and used to go to Church a bit for youth groups and the like, I find the religion that seems the most viable is Budhism. Not simply as they believe in no God, but from what I've learnt it seems as if Budhism focuses more on the mind and finding peace there, and since most people don't even use 10% of their mind, it is there that you can actually find something. But no I'm not going to convert, all I think is that religions are good for people to believe in, but they should not dictate how we govern the world. As if God did give us dominion over the world, he sure as hell wouldn't want us to go and ruin the perfect world built for us.

The whole fact that if the world had been developed any other way, we wouldn't be alive does make you think that it is possible something made it so, but something that made me open my eyes was the whole universe shouldn't actually exist, and is actually a mistake caused by anti-matter. (Or something like that, my Physics teacher is confusing enough when he is not trying to explain how the world began.) As for God, heaven and hell, I often wonder if we are all just dead and this is heaven, or actually hell, as even in evil there is good and vice versa. The two are intertwined. So as such I do like to believe that my life has some purpose and it was made by someone, but I also like to think it is my life and down to my choices, so in the end, whether or not God does exist, and whether or not I actually worship anymore, it is nice to believe there is more than what we see. As if this is all we got, then we better stop pissing about with the ozone layer and burning fossil fuels.

Well put.

I also have great respect for budhism, some really great values, thus said I still grab the shotguns and go blasting vermin every so often.

Agreed. Buddhism has many usefull values in life, mainly as it concentrates on inner peace, not the worshipping of a deity so much.

yeh Buddhism has some valid veiws, i see it more as a way of life then a religion.

as for christianity though, im using this because im not too up on other religions, i can understand where its coming from but I dont beleive it. i see the bible as propaganda, infact i see most of religion this way. i beleive there is something bigger, but i see the whole 'behave nicely or god shall smite thee and you shant go to heaven' thing a bit of a feeble excuse to keep those who beleive it contained, almots like law. if people dont obey the law then hopefully christianity will keep them in line, this isnt bad i just cant base my life around it. then again i am as cynical as they come.

.

[ Edited by Unique on 2005/1/14 17:08 ]

Unique wrote:
as for christianity though, im using this because im not too up on other religions, i can understand where its coming from but I dont beleive it. i see the bible as propaganda, infact i see most of religion this way. i beleive there is something bigger, but i see the whole 'behave nicely or god shall smite thee and you shant go to heaven' thing a bit of a feeble excuse to keep those who beleive it contained, almots like law. if people dont obey the law then hopefully christianity will keep them in line, this isnt bad i just cant base my life around it. then again i am as cynical as they come.

..

no i think im seeing it the way i see it, is there a universal point to religion? is it not personal to each person?

The Bible WAS written by man - no-one is trying to claim otherwise. But its special becuase God uses the Bible to speak to us.

so......those who wrote it were messengers of God and were told what to write?

[ Edited by Unique on 2005/1/14 17:20 ]

so......those who wrote it were messengers of God and were told what to write?

I've never seen God as some guy who chucks thunder bolts at sinners, though there are a few storeys in the Bible were similar things happen, but I agree Christianity should not control the law as it imposes beliefs of one relgion onto people who could be of a different faith. Keep universal law and religious laws seperate I say.

Thankfully Christianity has ironed itself out into a logical religion - even 50 years ago some of the practices were just insane.

*has urge to watch life of brian again*

I think along the same lines as unique. That religion was created as a way in the olden days to keep people in line. It's kinda like when a person tells a story and then someone else tells the same story then adds on a little bit to make it more exiting, eventually you get a truely fantastic tale. Some may be true but alot was added on for interest.
If you look at the bible, you can see that so many things seem so fantastic, which they are.

To put it in other words.

I beleive Jesus walked on water
I just think it was winter

Religion and science go hand in hand.

Religion says God created the universe from nothing.
Science says the universe was created from dust coming together through gravity, etc.

Where's the contradiction or conflict?

There is a cup of cocoa.
I said I made it.
The tin says it was made by putting 3 teaspoons of cocoa powder into a mug, then having the mug filled with warm milk and stirred.

The problem arises when one faction tries to disprove the other. Some religious people denounce science because it takes away from the glory of God. Biology can explain the human atery (sp?) system but that doesn't stop it from being one of God's greatest works. Some scientist say that the Big Bang was an accident ( the probability of it occuring is too low for it to be classsed as naturally occuring). The Big Bang might have happened, that doesn't mean there wasn't some sentient guidance behind it.

As a last point I have no belief in the theory of Evolution, it is a dated theory which was never proven (certain research goes some way to disprove) made by a scientist based on limited observations and inaccurate tools. I don't believe that we came from monkeys or other such animals because of our links to various species. From a biological aspect we have more in common with a pig then we do with a monkey, victorian scientist demonstrated on pigs due to similar anatomical features.
There is also the maths involved, for evolution to truly take place there has to be an entire generation of genetically compatible evolved specimens to be born from more than one animal community otherwise the gene pool is too limited to sustain further generations.